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One factor tomorrow’s election will take a look at is People’ urge for food for chaos, significantly the sort that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous few months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of working a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic employees author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer time interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the angle of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign employees advised Alberta that they grew to become disillusioned about their potential to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.
Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election consequence? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we discuss with Alberta and one other Atlantic employees author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump reworked over the summer time, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally provide recommendations on easy methods to handle your inside chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and it is a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. Sooner or later, their planes had been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.
Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about taking pictures reporters; Kamala Harris stated regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race remains to be one of many closest in American historical past.
Anyway, on this episode, I need to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me right this moment two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.
Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.
Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.
Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.
Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned right this moment?
Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.
Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply outdated. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I feel.
Leibovich: It’s undoubtedly flattering.
Alberta: We don’t use veteran.
Rosin: No, veteran is outdated. How about lively?
Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very lively. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?
Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to easy methods to strategy Tuesday evening.
Leibovich: Mainly, I’m making an attempt to gather a useful toolkit to easy methods to strategy Election Day from type of a sensible standpoint so far as what info you may ignore, but in addition a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about easy methods to not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Night time protection will in all probability overload you with.
And that features Donald Trump in all probability declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, can be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, however it additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to type of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow evening can be like—which can be clearly very anxious for lots of people.
Rosin: I see. So as an alternative of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient info.”
We all know that there in all probability isn’t going to be, type of, immediate early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes vast open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of possibly Tim wants this recommendation.
Leibovich: Nicely, I’m making an attempt. Nicely, I feel all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I feel it’s an strategy to how we eat info, how we get info.
I talked to a few Democratic consultants who stated that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any type of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Night time.
There may be a variety of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely info that’s obligatory, which, essentially the most precious info goes to come back in in all probability after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It could possibly be days later. The thought is the information will discover you. Flip off your telephone should you can. Data is coming in haphazardly from 1,000,000 completely different instructions, out of order, in no explicit sequence in anyway, about one thing that has already occurred—which means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is mainly simply folks throwing info out in no order, and it isn’t essentially—
Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—
Leibovich: —Not cumulative.
Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.
Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one cause you may skip that half.
Rosin: Fascinating. Tim, do you suppose you can do this?
Alberta: I worry that within the try to not drive myself loopy, I might drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’d discover your mind stacking up with all the issues that different folks know that you simply don’t, as a result of in that second you have got determined to sequester your self or not less than to type of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.
And subsequently the exit polling exhibiting the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that could possibly be the little parcel of data that’s obligatory so that you can consider that you’ve got lastly found out this electoral equation and that you’ve got a bead on it on this second.
It’s a sport of inches, and the inches are in every single place round us, Hanna. So how may I hand over any of these inches once we are so near the tip of the sport? I would like the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it life like.
Rosin: Hmm. You understand how typically you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll think about that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the tense a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been protecting the Republican aspect carefully, and you latterly spent a variety of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.
How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?
Alberta: I might describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.
Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I feel the context right here is actually essential: that this Trump marketing campaign, not like the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly sensible.
The folks working the marketing campaign had carried out a reasonably good job of protecting Trump out of his personal method and speaking him out of unhealthy concepts and type of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is mainly Trump going full Trump, and an incapacity amongst these senior advisers to essentially do something to cease it.
This has been type of the proverbial slow-motion automobile wreck. And, you already know, it’s not simply Trump himself, though after all he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of all the turmoil that you simply see.
He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so whenever you ask your self the query of how may or not it’s that at crucial public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay 1,000,000 {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how may this individual presumably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that atmosphere? It’s precisely the type of factor that the folks round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for many of the marketing campaign. However in the end, in the important thing house stretch right here, within the type of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.
Rosin: Mark, identical for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?
Leibovich: I might say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous few days.
It seems like one thing approaching the final space of the ballpark of confidence.
Rosin: Fascinating! Anomalous for Democrats.
Leibovich: Nicely, they’re so extremely fast to embrace unhealthy information and to go proper from unhealthy information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous few days.
I imply, look, I feel their numbers internally appear slightly higher. I feel a variety of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I feel you may’t underestimate how a lot of a prepare wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a method that, if he loses, I feel folks will very a lot level to.
Rosin: So, Mark, I bear in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race could be. Like, we had been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.
Leibovich: Nevertheless it was an amazing podcast. Everybody ought to hearken to it once more. (Laughs.)
Rosin: Nevertheless it was very, you already know—we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button acquired pressed in July.
Tim, the total Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous few months began, really, in keeping with your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?
Alberta: I feel that possibly the correct visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it principally to loss of life and is now simply type of pawing at it, toying with it, uncertain of actually what to do as a result of, nicely, what’s left to do?
Donald Trump actually discovered himself, in keeping with all of the reporting I did, type of over it. Kind of tired of working in opposition to Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this type of hapless outdated man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant method in opposition to Trump. And so I feel that he’s taking a look at Joe Biden pondering, Gosh that is type of a bore, and round this time, after all, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is best than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.
The battleground polling is exhibiting him persistently pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are making ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, you already know, The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is type of giddy and gleeful. They’re trying round like, Nothing can cease us.
And round this time is whenever you began to see Trump speaking slightly bit in another way, behaving slightly bit in another way, in keeping with folks near him—nearly in search of some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to folks on the skin. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was indignant, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it type of sewn up in opposition to Biden, and he preferred working in opposition to Biden within the sense that Biden actually, you already know, couldn’t punch again.
However I feel additionally he’s type of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s acquired this stay goal. He’s capable of channel among the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You already know, Trump, I feel, considered the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go entire hog once more.
However the folks round him had been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And admittedly, the explanation you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and working the type of, you already know, completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you simply wish to run and that you’d run should you had been left to your personal units. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who had been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different folks to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.
Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?
Leibovich: I feel in a type of measured method. I imply, I feel, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want folks to amplify. I imply, to a point you do, as a result of shops that a variety of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from a variety of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.
I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I feel they’ve been very deft—they’ve made a variety of advertisements across the type of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a girl’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to a point, they’re making an attempt to focus on it, however to a different diploma—it is a huge political-operative cliché, however they’re working their race.
And I feel the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I feel Harris has carried out a lot better than lots of people thought she would, and I feel her marketing campaign has made a variety of good selections, and she or he herself has made a variety of good selections.
Rosin: It does, from the skin, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of should you suppose again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition won’t be easy.
Leibovich: Oh, one hundred pc. I imply, Tim and I, bear in mind, we had been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually type of at his peak then, which is type of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his reputation, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you can nearly sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I assume it was Thursday evening, after which about midway by way of, he simply type of went off the rails, and he simply type of—it grew to become only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from type of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try to one thing fully completely different, which type of grew to become a metaphor for a way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.
And naturally, three days later, Biden acquired out after which the world modified once more.
Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic ultimate months of the Trump marketing campaign may find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.
[Break]
Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we really care about is whether or not it has any impression on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe may have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re frightened about?
Alberta: Nicely, look, if these episodes had been contained to only Trump being slightly bit goofy or going off message and type of ranting and raving in regards to the newest one who stated one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t suppose it might have a lot real-world impact. However I feel that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that truly will get to a basic weak spot, which is a failure of the Trump staff to increase its coalition.
Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the best way wherein the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the folks near him. So, for instance, we all know primarily based on six months of actually strong, constant knowledge that Trump is prone to carry out higher with Latino voters as a complete and significantly with Latino males below 40 than any Republican nominee in fashionable historical past.
And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that one in all your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.
One other core element of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How will we maintain our margins tight within the suburbs exterior of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How will we maintain our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban girls? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how will we handle to maintain it shut? How will we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as an alternative of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?
And whenever you take a look at, for instance, the collection of J. D. Vance and, you already know, his outdated, greatest-hits reel round childless cat girls, and he thinks abortion must be unlawful nationwide, proper?
And there’s simply one thing that type of went basically awry over the summer time. I feel Mark is correct. Each of us had been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Night time victory social gathering. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking in regards to the marketing campaign as if it had been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats girl was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I bear in mind corresponding with a number of sensible Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, they usually had been slightly bit nervous in regards to the Vance choice. After which on Thursday evening, to Mark’s level, Trump offers this type of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander a variety of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, you already know, 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and all of the sudden, these dominoes began to fall.
And what we noticed was all the best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was type of foolish he stated that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, however it’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I feel, can have an actual impression on the poll field.
Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they had been following pretty efficiently, which is: attempt to win over, you already know, some middle-of-the-road voters, or not less than not massively alienate these folks.
However, Trump has been working a really completely different type of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground assets. And that looks like a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.
The technique was all the time simply: get a variety of consideration.
Alberta: I feel it will depend on the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, you already know, tons of of cameras following him round there and talks in regards to the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—you already know, that’s consideration, and it may possibly even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump folks, proper? They take a look at this type of cost-benefit evaluation they usually acknowledge that, positive, we’d antagonize some folks with this rhetoric. We would alienate some folks with our give attention to these points, however we predict that the reward is much better than the danger.
So there may be, I feel, loads of good consideration that the Trump folks do need. I feel what they’ve tried to keep away from is a variety of the sideshow that’s interesting to among the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And in the end on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.
Leibovich: Proper, and I feel, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient subject for Trump. Whenever you tip that into folks consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they seem like fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really critical and efficient subject for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.
Rosin: So the artwork of working a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the proper of chaos, the proper of consideration, however should you lose management of it, it simply comes again to chew you. Is that mainly what’s occurred?
Alberta: Yeah, and it’s all the time gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These folks aren’t silly. They knew what they had been getting themselves into. In truth, Chris LaCivita—who is without doubt one of the two folks managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside a couple of weeks of his choice to hitch the operation again within the fall of 2022, you have got Trump saying that he desires to terminate components of the Structure. You will have Trump saying and doing these type of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is type of trying round saying, What have I gotten myself into?
And naturally people who find themselves buddies with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you had been signing up for. You already know precisely what you had been getting your self into. So I feel no matter diploma of self-delusion could exist on the outset, when a few of these of us ally themselves with Donald Trump, you already know, it dissolves fairly shortly they usually turn out to be clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.
And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking habits, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which can be type of doubtlessly poisonous into productiveness. They’re making an attempt to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For many of the marketing campaign, they had been really doing a reasonably good job of it. However at a sure level I feel it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.
Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, slightly dose of confidence. Is that due to all the things that Tim has described?
Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I feel Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never similar to, Oh, look, he stated this and type of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications in regards to the revulsion that ladies are having—girls voters are having for Trump—much more so than normal. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and possibly even mendacity to their husbands about—to type of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is mainly saying, you already know, a variety of Republican girls are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I feel they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I might say, you already know, it might in all probability be an absolute verboten factor for anybody wherever close to the Harris marketing campaign to point out something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, you already know—Biden was speculated to win by much more than he did.
And I feel what freaks everybody out is the concept that Trump, within the two occasions he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls they usually’re undercounting African American voters, girls voters, and so forth.
So anyway, I feel all of that’s type of baked into this, however look, I don’t need to recommend that something apart from large nervousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.
Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s go away the listeners with ideas about Election Night time. There’s the zen possibility, and hopefully a lot of our listeners will benefit from the zen possibility.
Take an extended, 12-hour stroll. Be house by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. In need of that, the map is actually vast and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s lots. So for individuals who are usually not spiritually constructed for the zen possibility, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the evening.
Leibovich: Nicely, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I feel there’s lots you may study if you may get info from different states. You already know, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—a variety of insiders have been speaking about over the previous few days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought-about a swing state. Safely pink, actually has been in the previous few elections, actually for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday evening, having Harris forward by three.
Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric consequence for folks on Group Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, you already know, possibly present Trump’s margins slightly decrease than you’d count on, presumably that’s one thing that you may study from.
So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which can in all probability take some time to rely, particularly in among the states with legal guidelines that make it more durable to rely early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I feel we are able to study from lots of people.
And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that you already know precisely who’s going to win, however you may study from.
Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of knowledge that’s attention-grabbing. Tim, what about you?
Alberta: So there’s a identified identified, and a identified unknown. The identified identified is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to a point younger voters.
And I feel particularly if we’re taking a look at Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we must be being attentive to this, proper? I feel the identified unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get overwhelmed up amongst suburban girls, or does he get demolished amongst suburban girls?
And I feel that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.
So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties exterior of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties exterior of Milwaukee. You need to take a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t need to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, in the end, that’s the place the election goes to be received or misplaced.
Rosin: Each of you’re saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply huge, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you simply’ll be in search of.
Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers sport. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply persistently present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even should you’re in search of a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper appears to be like like he’s going to win and possibly even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Night time in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to mainly a draw. I feel it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, you already know, a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.
So these are the components of the nation the place I feel should you’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a reasonably good concept.
Rosin: Okay. I feel we’ve choices for the meditators and choices for individuals who can’t carry themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on at the present time earlier than the election.
Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.
Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We are able to meditate collectively.
Leibovich: I sit up for it. Yep, we’ll be part of figurative fingers.
Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although presumably sooner than our normal Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.
Thanks for listening.
