When Neighbors Stay in Completely different Worlds

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Hosts Anne Applebaum and Peter Pomerantsev discuss with Hanna Rosin concerning the new collection We Stay Right here Now. Rosin, alongside together with her co-host, Lauren Ober, lately came upon that their new neighbors moved to Washington, D.C., to help January 6 insurrectionists. Rosin and Ober determined to knock on their neighbors’ door. We Stay Right here Now is a podcast collection about what occurred subsequent. Subscribe to We Stay Right here Now right here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | iHeart

The next is a transcript of the episode:

Anne Applebaum: That is Anne Applebaum.

Peter Pomerantsev: And that is Peter Pomerantsev, and we’re right here with a visitor as we speak, The Atlantic’s Hanna Rosin.

Hanna Rosin: Hello.

Applebaum: And though our collection, Autocracy in America, has wrapped up, there’s nonetheless rather a lot to do and take into consideration forward of the 2024 election.

Pomerantsev: Hanna is the host of The Atlantic’s weekly present referred to as Radio Atlantic, and he or she’s additionally simply launched a brand new podcast referred to as We Stay Right here Now, a collection.

Rosin: Yeah, We Stay Right here Now is the story of my companion, Lauren Ober, and I discovering that we had some new neighbors, and it’s about our effort to get to know these neighbors. And it turned out, these neighbors have been supporting the January 6 insurrectionists.

Pomerantsev: On the finish of this episode, we’ll embrace all the first episode for listeners to listen to. However we need to begin with somewhat clip that provides you a way of what first launched them into making the collection.

Applebaum: Hanna, I’ve had confrontation experiences myself.

I used to be as soon as at a dinner in Poland—it is a couple years in the past—with outdated mates who abruptly began repeating a conspiracy principle concerning the authorities, and it occurred to be the federal government that my husband had been a part of. And I attempted to hear politely and go like, Uh-huh, yeah, that’s true, yeah, positive. After which finally I left the room.

Rosin: Uh-huh.

Applebaum: And I’m undecided I might have lasted even that lengthy with individuals who weren’t outdated mates and have been doing the identical factor. So we’re not going to speak all about We Stay Right here Now, since many listeners could not have but heard the podcast, however I do need you to inform me somewhat bit extra about that have of being shouted down in your neighborhood—or, extra precisely, being along with your companion as she was being shouted down. Had been you by no means tempted to argue again?

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, I actually assume it’s an accident of how the interplay occurred. If it had occurred at dinner, I suppose you’ll be able to mood your self, such as you simply described. You can by no means see these folks once more. Like, you can ignore them or shout them down after which select to by no means see them once more. However as a result of these folks lived a few blocks away, I form of knew I used to be going to see them rather a lot. So possibly that muted my response. My companion doesn’t have a mute button, however I simply type of knew that I higher take a step again and take into consideration what I need to do, as a result of I used to be going to run into these individuals who, , occur to have militia stickers and are seemingly aggressive. So I simply type of wanted a minute to assume what I wished to do. With out that pause, I’m undecided this story would have occurred in the way in which that it occurred.

Pomerantsev: And the way did you construct the connection with them? I imply, was it, was there any type of discomfort or hazard concerned if you first met them? After which, however most significantly, how did you construct belief? I imply, how would they study to belief you?

Rosin: You already know, it’s fascinating. When you determine to step into another world, it’s virtually like it’s important to make the choice. More often than not, we simply don’t make that call. We’re like, That is cuckoo. I’m not going. I don’t share something in frequent with these folks. Like, we don’t actually have a shared set of information in the way in which we’d have 15, 20 years in the past. So there’s simply—like, there’s no starting to this relationship. For no matter purpose, we closed our eyes and determined to step into that different actuality. And when you make that call, you simply do it very, very, very gingerly.

On this case, they occur to do a public occasion, which we knew was occurring each single night time, and it’s out on a avenue nook in D.C. And it’s public house. So that really gave us the liberty to point out up at this public occasion. It’s outdoors the D.C. Jail, they usually’re in help of the January 6 prisoners. The detainees are all held in a segregated wing of the D. C. Jail, in order that they maintain a protest each single night time at the very same time. So , you’ll be able to metal your self up each night time and say like, Okay, tonight’s the night time I’m going to go to the vigil, ?

Applebaum: Can I really ask you some extra about that vigil? As a result of one of many issues We Stay Right here Now does, it explores the way in which by which folks can rewrite historical past, which is without doubt one of the issues that occurs. And also you discuss how on the vigil, there are posters with faces of people that died on January 6. And every poster reads Murdered by Capitol Police, despite the fact that just one particular person was discovered to have died from a bullet fired by the police, And so there’s now a story that the folks in jail are the great guys and the folks outdoors of jail are the unhealthy guys. I really spent 20 years writing books concerning the historical past of the Soviet Union, and that is very a lot what autocratic regimes do: They alter the way in which you bear in mind historical past. They make heroes out of villains, and vice versa. And the way, how did you see that taking place and the way did you come to know the way it labored? Why was it profitable among the many folks that you simply have been visiting?

Rosin: Nicely, that was one of the exceptional experiences I had—is being that near watching revisionism occur. Like, the nitty-gritty, going again and time and, Okay, when was the primary time that Trump talked about Ashli Babbitt?, who’s the girl who was shot by the Capitol Law enforcement officials? As a result of initially, proper after January 6, many—even Trump supporters—stated, you know, The Capitol Police officer did job. You already know, He did his responsibility. It was a horrible day. Like, in the event you have a look at issues that occurred in early January, all people was sharing the fact of what occurred on January 6. And you then watch how, slowly, type of folks peel away from that actuality. Trump begins making an attempt out strains at his rallies. Oh, Ashli Babbitt was murdered. He makes use of the phrases, “they,” rather a lot. You already know, they killed Ashli Babbitt. They did this. And at that time, the Huge Lie—the lie that the election was stolen—might have pale away, prefer it felt like a second the place it might have simply been relegated to historical past, after which it’s like, rapidly, there’s this collective resolution, Oh no, we’re going to revive this. And the way in which we’re going to revive it’s by speaking first about this martyr, after which about this group of individuals, and abruptly black is white and white is black.

And since these individuals who we received near, they’re form of innocents on this narrative. One of many principal characters is Micki Witthoeft, who’s the mom of Ashli Babbitt. And simply take into consideration that. She’s a grieving mom. It’s as if her emotional-grief actuality begins to align with Trump’s messaging on this excellent storm, after which rapidly, issues that aren’t true appear, not simply true, however righteous.

Pomerantsev: Inform me a bit concerning the delusion, although, as a result of on the one hand, it’s another actuality, which you described so nicely simply now, however then again, isn’t it fairly American on the similar time? I imply, I like if you discuss, , how they describe themselves as “saving democracy.” They’re the true patriots. I imply, as you encountered it, did you discover it utterly alien delusion or one thing that really form of resonated with so many American tales about themselves: rebelling in opposition to Washington, the entire—

Rosin: Sure, I imply, one factor that I got here to really feel concerning the January 6 detainees, like, typically it could pop into my head: them in costume, like, Okay, they’re, they’re form of role-playing 1776 right here, . Notably, one among our episodes is a few jury trial. My companion was very randomly referred to as onto a jury, as many individuals in D.C. are, and it occurred to be a January 6 case. And never solely that, but it surely occurred to be one among these January 6 instances by which you are feeling that somebody simply type of misplaced it for a day. You already know, it’s a dad; he has 5 kids; by a decide’s depend, extraordinarily legislation abiding; been married for a very long time. However then throughout that day, simply type of, , went nuts.

And as you get nearer to what they did that day, you do really feel like there was only a rush, like a rush of form of feeling heroic, , feeling patriotic, feeling such as you have been saving the nation, feeling like you will have this unbelievable mission. After which I believe, one factor that no one predicted is that they did hold these guys in a segregated wing of the D.C. Jail, collectively. We don’t normally do this. I imply, Gitmo is the opposite place the place we’ve finished that. However the D.C. Jail is essentially Black. And so these guys had a repute at that day, in the event you bear in mind, as being white supremacists, so they didn’t need to throw them into the D.C. Jail. However the results of maintaining them collectively, I imply, you’ll be able to think about what occurred.

Applebaum: So that is precisely the factor that I wished to ask you about. I used to be very struck by one of many characters who you interview and describe. That is Brandon Fellows, who was a man who was virtually unintentionally caught up in January the sixth. He entered the Capitol. He wound up smoking a joint in one of many places of work within the Capitol. Because of this, he was arrested. And since he was a part of this group of prisoners, he was basically radicalized. And that story of how the prisoners collectively radicalized each other, created a mythology round themselves, it jogged my memory of so many different moments in historical past when that’s occurred, I imply, for each good and for unhealthy. The IRA in British prisons radicalized; um, numerous jihadis and numerous prisons around the globe are stated to have radicalized that approach too. But additionally the ANC in South Africa, who have been collectively in a jail on Robben Island for a few years. I imply, that’s how they created their cohesive motion. So it might work positively too. Weren’t you tempted to attempt to discuss him out of it, the place you—did you not need to say, “Don’t you see what’s occurring to you?”

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, with him, that intuition was very highly effective as a result of, , he’s barely older than my oldest little one. And so I—so in his case, I did have the intuition of, like, making an attempt to shake this out of him.

Like, “Don’t you see?,” like “You have been on this—you have been on this jail,” , and he was on this jail. He got here in as a goofball. Then he got here to see these guys as, like, fierce and difficult. And by the tip, he got here to see them, as you stated, Peter, as true patriots, so it’s not simply that they have been robust guys. It was like they have been true and righteous and the following era of founding fathers and he was similar to, Nope, such as you simply don’t, you don’t get it. I’m lethal critical right here.

Pomeranstev: So that you didn’t construct a coalition with them, you didn’t persuade them, you don’t attempt to persuade them to alter events. However you spent a 12 months with them. What’s it that you simply discovered significant in that interplay? And why is it significant for all of us to listen to about it? I imply, it’s fascinating, but additionally what’s the significance of doing one thing like this?

Rosin: I can solely inform you a few restricted significance, which is that over the previous couple of years, I’ve began to learn—as I wager you guys have—, what do you will have, like, all of us throw up our arms: We’re so polarized. We’re not even residing in the identical actuality. We are able to’t discuss to one another.

You can not go right into a dialog, as a lot as you deeply, deeply need to, with the intention of adjusting the opposite particular person’s thoughts. That could be a dropping technique. Don’t do it. It’s so laborious. It’s as laborious in politics as it’s in a relationship. It’s very laborious as a result of all of us simply need to do this. And so your solely choice is to only open your thoughts, hear what they need to say, be curious, ask questions, and that’s it.

Applebaum: And the way do you do this with out turning into indignant?

Rosin: It’s— [Laughs.] I imply, that’s your, they only, as a result of I’ve been to sufficient {couples} remedy [Laughs.] that it’s like, that’s your solely choice. And also you virtually need to do it with a leap of religion that there’s one thing human on the finish of that.

Pomerantsev: So the which means, in a approach, is studying to only behave and work together another way.

Rosin: There are shocking type of moments of non-nastiness that come up if you method the world from that perspective.

Pomerantsev: I imply, I spend quite a lot of my time writing about propaganda and speaking to folks with all types of deeply warped beliefs, and at one level I noticed that the one worthwhile query I might ask that will result in a dialog that was human was, How did it begin? How did you begin believing in X?

Rosin:Sure.

Pomerantsev: And you then’d all the time get a really private story.

Rosin: Sure.

Pomerantsev: Often about some form of trauma. I’m not saying that’s any type of excuse, but it surely abruptly grew to become a human story about how somebody is making sense of the world.

Rosin: Sure.

Pomerantsev: And abruptly there was an individual. Once more, I by no means modified them. They’re nonetheless gonna do horrible issues, however at the very least I knew they have been an individual. I don’t know. Possibly, in the long term, that helps us provide you with higher methods to cope with it. However not instantly. It’s not a like aha second.

Rosin: Yeah. It’s not a kumbaya. It’s similar to, it truly is a leap of religion ’trigger as you’re doing it, you are feeling, Am I doing one thing harmful? Like humanizing this propaganda? Like, Is that this unsuitable, what I’m doing? And also you simply type of stay with that doubt and you retain asking questions, ?

Pomeranstev: Yeah. However people do plenty of unhealthy issues. Humanizing doesn’t imply making it good; it simply makes it human. You already know, that doesn’t—it is like, Ooh, humanizing. Yeah, I believe possibly the phrase humanizing must lose its constructive aura. People are fairly terrible.

Rosin: That’s a fairly good thought.

Pomeranstev: However they’re human. [Laughs.]

Rosin: So what’s the level of humanizing in the event you take away the constructive facets? Humanizing is sweet as a result of …

Pomerantsev: You begin to see the problem for what it’s reasonably than one thing esoteric. You already know, it’s an actual particular person doing actual issues. Due to this fact we will cope with it.

Applebaum: Hanna Rosin is the co-host together with Lauren Ober of the brand new six-part podcast collection from The Atlantic referred to as We Stay Right here Now. Discover We Stay Right here Now wherever you take heed to podcasts.

Pomerantsev: And we now have the primary episode right here. Hold listening and, Hanna, thanks for speaking with us as we speak.

Rosin: Thanks each.

[We Live Here Now Episode 1: “We’re Allowed to Be Here”]

Lauren Ober: When the neighbor incident first occurred, it didn’t actually really feel very similar to something. Or possibly we have been each too shocked to take all of it in.

Hanna Rosin: It wasn’t till we began telling different folks the story and they reacted that it started to really feel like possibly we’d found one thing.

Ober: I suppose it began similar to some other canine stroll. Hanna and I leashed up our pups and set out from our home on our post-dinner stroll. It was early November of 2023, and I bear in mind it was unseasonably heat. We headed off down the hill from our home, in the direction of our neighborhood park.

[Music]

Rosin: A block previous the park, Lauren noticed it: A black Chevy Equinox with Texas plates we’d seen parked across the neighborhood. Only a primary American SUV apart from the stickers that coated the again windshield—

Ober: —stickers we’re very a lot not used to seeing in our mixed-race, mixed-income neighborhood. Our vibe is extra like, Make D.C. the 51st state, and, No taxation with out illustration.

However these stickers have been a combo platter of skulls and American flags. There was a Roman numeral for 3—the image of a militia group referred to as the Three Percenters—and the pièce de résistance: a large decal within the middle of the again window that learn, free our patriots. j4j6, which means, Justice for January 6.

Rosin: Lauren notices each new or totally different factor within the neighborhood, and this automobile was undoubtedly totally different. As we walked previous it, Lauren stated what she all the time stated once we noticed this automobile.

Ober: “There’s that fucking militiamobile once more!”

Proper after I stated that reasonably unneighborly factor, the passenger-side window rolled down, cigarette smoke curled out of the automobile, and the particular person inside shouted, “Justice for J6!”

Rosin: To which Lauren stated—

Ober: “You’re within the unsuitable neighborhood for that, honey.” After which the girl within the automobile stated phrases I’m not going to overlook anytime quickly: “We stay right here now. So suck it, bitch.”

We’ll get to who that particular person is quickly sufficient. However we’re not there but. Once we first encountered the girl from the automobile, we had no thought who we have been coping with. I simply knew I used to be sufficiently put in my place. “Nicely, okay,” I bear in mind saying to Hanna as we walked again residence.

Rosin: I bear in mind, after it occurred, we walked away in complete silence. That’s my reminiscence—every of us looping in our personal heads about one thing.

Ober: I bear in mind being mad as a result of I misplaced. (Laughs.)

Rosin: Proper.

Ober: As a result of I didn’t get the ultimate phrase, and since I simply stored pondering, like, the entire mixture of it felt unhealthy to me. It’s like, Militia stickers. Justice for J6. We stay right here. You simply referred to as me a reputation. The entire thing was very misplaced. And I felt it was somewhat destabilizing.

Rosin: Yeah, yeah. I walked residence in a half hypervigilant-neighborhood-watch mind—like, Who lives right here now? What are they doing right here? Are we going to get into extra of those confrontations?—and a half journalism mind, like, Who’s we? The place do they stay? Why are there right here now? These have been my two tracks after I was strolling residence.

[Music]

​Ober: I’m Lauren Ober.

Rosin: And I’m Hanna Rosin.

Ober: And from The Atlantic, that is We Stay Right here Now.

A lot of the nation watched January 6 from a protected distance: one thing occurring of their Twitter feeds or on their cellphone screens. However for these of us residing in D.C., it was occurring in our yard.

Donald Trump: I do know that everybody right here will quickly be marching over to the Capitol constructing to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.

Rioter: Begin making a listing. Put all these names down. And we begin looking them down one after the other.

Particular person on bullhorn inside Congress: We had a disbursement of tear fuel within the Rotunda. Please be suggested there are masks underneath your seats. Please seize a masks.

[Music]

All Issues Thought-about host Ailsa Chang: In Washington, D.C., a curfew has now taken impact from 6 p.m. Japanese tonight to six a.m. Thursday morning.

Ober: So we have been really left with the wreckage of that day. We have been in a militarized metropolis. We have been residing underneath a curfew. Streets have been blocked off. The home windows have been all boarded up. And also you felt such as you have been residing, if not in a warzone, in a harmful place.

Rosin: And there was Nationwide Guard all over the place. All of the shops have been closed, and there have been only a few common folks strolling round doing common issues. And I used to be simply pondering, The place am I? What metropolis is that this?

Ober: Proper. I purchased a baseball bat for defense.

Rosin: I keep in mind that.

Ober: Which is why, two-plus years later, it felt like this entire time frame we’d reasonably overlook was racing again. Donald Trump was trying like he’d be the Republican nominee, and a second Trump presidency appeared doable. Plus, we had a automobile with militia stickers lurking in our neighborhood.

Rosin: So no, we didn’t welcome January 6 supporters creeping again to the scene of the crime. But additionally, we wished to know what they have been as much as.

[Music]

Ober: Within the instant aftermath of January 6, there have been three names I related to what occurred on the Capitol: The QAnon Shaman, for apparent causes; Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes as a result of he appeared actually harmful, and likewise he had a watch patch; and Ashli Babbitt, who has every part to do with our new neighbors’ arrival in D.C.

4 folks died that day, however I solely bear in mind listening to about Ashli. Possibly that’s as a result of she was the one rioter killed by legislation enforcement.

Ashli Babbitt was a Trump diehard, so it’s not shocking she made her technique to D.C. for the rally. She was a Second Modification–loving libertarian. She wholeheartedly believed in MAGA and QAnon. Through the pandemic, she was hostile about masks mandates and refused to get vaccinated. When California issued a stay-at-home order, she tweeted, “That is that commie bullshit!”

Rosin: The day earlier than her loss of life, Ashli tweeted in QAnon communicate: “Nothing will cease us….they’ll attempt to attempt to attempt however the storm is right here and it’s descending upon D.C. in lower than 24 hours….darkish to mild!”

Ashli Babbitt: We’re strolling to the Capitol in a mob. There’s an estimated over 3 million folks right here as we speak. So regardless of what the media tells you, boots on floor undoubtedly say one thing totally different. There’s a sea of nothing however purple, white, and blue.

Ober: On the day of the riots, she appeared genuinely thrilled to be there.

Babbitt: And it was wonderful to get to see the president discuss. We are actually strolling down the inaugural path to the Capitol constructing, 3 million plus folks. God bless America, patriots.

Rosin: Extra like 50,000 folks, give or take. And some thousand of them went into the Capitol—or, extra precisely, broke in. When the mob of protestors breached the Capitol, busting home windows and breaking down doorways, Ashli was proper there within the combine.

Rioter: There’s so many individuals. They’re going to push their approach up right here.

Rosin: There are 4 movies shot by rioters that seize this second in its entirety: Ashli strides down a hallway like she is aware of the place she’s going. She’s adopted by different rioters, however they’re abruptly stopped once they come to a set of doorways with giant window panels. By way of the home windows, you can also make out congresspeople being evacuated away from the rising mob. The group Ashli is with has unintentionally landed on the bullseye, the precise place the place these congresspeople have been about to certify the election.

[Crowd noise]

Rosin: On the opposite facet of the doorways is a cop with a gun, though it’s unclear if Ashli can see him. She’s the one lady in a sea of males, and he or she’s small, and he or she appears to be yelling.

Ashli: It’s our fucking home. We’re allowed to be in right here. You’re unsuitable.

Rosin: “It’s our fucking home. We’re allowed to be in right here. You’re unsuitable.”

One of many rioters breaks a window, after which, out of nowhere, Ashli tries to climb by it.

[Crowd noise]

Rosin: The cop shoots.

Rioter: Oh! Oh, shit! Pictures fired! Pictures fired!

Rosin: She instantly falls backwards and lands on the ground. She jerks and convulses, and blood pours out of her mouth.

Rioter 1: She’s useless.

Rioter 2: She’s useless?

Rioter 1: She’s useless. I noticed the sunshine exit in her eyes. I noticed the lights exit.

Rioter 2: What occurred, bro? Inform the world.

Rosin: After which one thing occurs proper after she dies. It’s a element I missed at first, but it surely turned out to be a spark for every part that will occur since that day. Individuals round Ashli take out their cell telephones and begin filming.

Rioter 1: This particular person says he really noticed her die. He really noticed her die.

Rioter 2: I’ll publish that video. I’ve the video. I’ve the video of the man with the gun, they usually’re taking pictures her.

Rioter: Okay. I need to get with you. I’m with Infowars.com. I’m with Infowars.com.

Rioter 2: “Jayden X.” Have you ever ever heard of that?

Rosin: One particular person says he’s from Infowars and affords to purchase footage from somebody nearer.

Rioter 1: I need to get your information proper now in the event you received that shot.

Rioter 2: I’ve all of it. I used to be proper on the door.

Rioter 2: Okay. I want that footage, man. It’s going to exit to the world. It’s going to alter a lot.

Rosin: Even within the chaos they understand: A martyr was born.

Ober: Rumors unfold instantly that the girl killed was 25, 21, a mere teenager. In precise reality, Ashli was 35. However the particulars didn’t matter. She was a younger, white lady within the prime of her life shot useless by a Black officer. Individuals have been fast to level out that she was a veteran—a conflict hero, even—purportedly upholding her oath to defend the Structure when she died.

On far-right, pro-Trump message boards post-January 6, Ashli was referred to as a freedom fighter and the “first sufferer of the second Civil Warfare.” One particular person wrote: “Your blood is not going to be in useless. We’ll avenge you.”

Rosin: Individuals who got here to January 6 thought they have been saving our democracy from evil forces making an attempt to steal an election.

Three years later, a few of them nonetheless assume that. And now, those self same evil forces are maintaining J6 “freedom fighters” in jail. Justice for January 6—that’s what these window stickers on the Chevy are about.

Ober: This conspiracy has gotten extra elaborate over time: The rebel was a setup, or, The prosecution of January 6 rioters represented gross authorities overreach, or, The federal government can flip by itself residents, even kill them.

Rosin: Loads of the individuals who imagine this stuff have taken their cues from one lady: Ashli’s mom. Her title is Micki Witthoeft.

Micki Witthoeft: Ashli was a beloved daughter, spouse, sister, granddaughter, niece, and aunt. However past that, she was the only bravest particular person I’ve ever recognized. She was the quintessential American lady. Right this moment is a darkish day for our household and this nation, for they’ve misplaced a real patriot. I want to invite Donald J. Trump to say her title—

[Music]

Ober: It took us a minute, however with the assistance of some mates, we lastly found out that Micki was our new neighbor. I wasn’t positive what I thought of having Ashli Babbitt’s grieving mom come again to the place the place her daughter was killed. Why was she right here, in our D.C. neighborhood? What did she need? Was there some form of future Jan. 6 on the horizon? All of it felt just a bit too shut for consolation.

Within the days after our run-in with the neighbor, I Googled ’til my eyeballs dried out. There have been quite a lot of movies on social media that featured Micki however not quite a lot of stable data. I reported what I might discover to Hanna.

Ober: Do you need to know what the home is named?

Rosin: What?

Ober: The Eagle’s Nest.

Rosin: Oh, cease. (Laughs.) What?

Ober: Yeah.

Rosin: No, we don’t have the Eagle’s Nest in our neighborhood.

Ober: What does the Eagle’s Nest imply to you?

Rosin: Some patriot factor.

Ober: No. Nicely, positive, one would assume, Oh, it’s patriotic, proper? American Eagle.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: It’s the place all of the eagles go. However are you aware who else had a really specific property referred to as the Eagle’s Nest?

Rosin: No.

Ober: Nicely, I’ll inform you. It’s Adolf Hitler. Nevertheless, to cite Micki, who defined to HuffPost why they referred to as the home the Eagle’s Nest:

Ober: She stated, We name our home the Eagle’s Nest, which some would say was Hitler’s hideout. However we’re Americans, and we gained that conflict, and we’re taking again the title. So that is completely not an ode to Hitler.

Ober: Right here’s what else I came upon: The net movies of Micki didn’t precisely make me need to carry over a tray of selfmade, “Welcome to the neighborhood” brownies. A number of shouting and scowling and common unpleasantness.

Witthoeft: Why are you all right here in the event you’re going to let that occur? He stated, Why the hell are you all right here?

Particular person 2: He stated that to you? That was very unprofessional!

Particular person 3: They’re fascists.

Ober: In a single clip on-line, Micki is being arrested for “blocking and obstructing roadways.” She was at a march to honor the second anniversary of her daughter’s loss of life, and he or she walked into the road one too many occasions. The D.C. cops didn’t recognize that, they usually let her understand it.

It wasn’t the one time she received into it with the cops. A 12 months later—

Witthoeft: I attempt to present y’all respect. I’ve been arrested twice, and I’ve finished it peacefully. That’s bullshit. Your man is bullshit. That’s bullshit.

Officer: I wasn’t down right here, so I can communicate to how—

Ober: There have been quite a lot of movies of Micki and her housemates entering into dustups with D.C. people who didn’t appear to understand their presence of their metropolis.

Particular person 1: Get the fuck outta right here.

Particular person 2: Get the fuck off of me, bitch. Get the fuck off, the fuck off. Get the fuck off.

Particular person 3: Hey! We caught it on video.

Particular person 2: Cease fucking touching my shit.

Particular person 3: Get out of right here, you pansy.

Ober: However later, in the identical video, there’s this: Our new neighbors are getting harassed by anti-J6 protestors, people who wish to chalk the sidewalk with phrases like “Micki is a grifter.” There are a variety of D.C. cops on the scene. I get tense simply watching it. Lastly, Micki snaps and screams at them.

Officer: I heard all of the commotion. That’s why I received out. I can’t see—I didn’t see what occurred out right here.

Particular person 2: I needed to beg him to get out of his automobile.

Witthoeft: You possibly can inform your man that the rationale I’m right here is as a result of three years in the past as we speak, y’all killed my child. That’s why I’m right here.

[Music]

Ober: Proper. She’s a mother, and the police killed her child. That’s why she’s right here. She needs to ensure her useless daughter isn’t forgotten and that somebody is held accountable for what occurred.

And a technique to try this is to possibly get your self arrested, or at the very least present up all over the place—January 6 trials, congressional hearings, the Supreme Courtroom, rallies, marches, my neighborhood.

One other approach for folks to take discover? A nightly vigil outdoors the D.C. jail, each single night time for greater than 700 nights.

Rosin: And we imply each night time, within the rain or scorching warmth. With out fail, Micki and some supporters stand on what they name Freedom Nook and discuss on the cellphone with the J6 defendants held contained in the jail.

Ober: As I defined to Hanna:

Ober: Each night time at 7 p.m., these apparently true patriots—

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: —come out, they usually have a vigil for the entire January 6 defendants who’re at the moment being held within the jail, both awaiting trial or awaiting sentencing.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: And each night time, they get a January 6 inmate on the cellphone, they usually put them on the speaker, after which they take part singing, like, the nationwide anthem or “America the Lovely,” they usually’re chanting, like, “Justice for Ashli.” And the night ends, typically, with “God Bless [the U.S.A.],” Lee Greenwood.

Rosin: Who’s the “they”?

Ober: So there’s a small cadre of true believers who imagine that the folks within the D.C. jail are political prisoners.

Rosin: Attention-grabbing.

[Music]

Rosin: Attention-grabbing is a boring factor to say. I get that. However I used to be solely simply beginning to put this entire image collectively, that Micki and her mates weren’t in D.C. simply to trigger chaos. They have been right here to push a story that these folks—the identical ones who turned our metropolis the other way up—have been victims of a colossal injustice. And likewise, that January 6 was really a very acceptable train of freedom and liberty.

And their model of the story was getting traction with some necessary folks—really, crucial particular person.

Trump: I’m the political prisoner of a failing nation, however I’ll quickly be free on November 5, crucial day within the historical past of our nation, and we are going to collectively make America nice once more. Thanks.

Rosin: If our interactions with our new neighbors had unfolded extra like the standard neighborhood showdown—my MAGA hat versus your dump trump signal—issues might need been simpler as a result of that will be simply straight-up neighbor warfare, pure mutual hatred.

Ober: But it surely didn’t occur that approach. As an alternative, two reverse dramas unfolded: (1) We received an up-close, intimate view of how historical past will get rewritten. Name it the lost-cause narrative for the twenty first century: A bunch of People instantly units to work retooling the historical past of an occasion by tweets and podcasts and viral video clips, in a approach that distorts collective reminiscence without end.

Rosin: However then, (2) our new neighbors grew to become actual folks to us. We additionally received an up-close, intimate view of them, their monumental grief, their sleepless nights, their deep friendship—issues that make it more durable to purely hate on somebody.

Ober: This lady, Micki Witthoeft, is many issues to many individuals—Mama Micki to the January 6 defendants, mom of a useless home terrorist to others. However to us, she’s one thing else—she’s our neighbor.

Ober: Do you need to hear one thing rotten?

Micki: I don’t know if I do, however I’ll.

Ober: After months of attending to know Micki, I felt like I wanted to admit one thing. She had been telling me how folks within the neighborhood had typically been good to them, apart from this one time. One among her roommates, Nicole, had been sitting within the automobile, and these two ladies walked by and stated one thing completely impolite, and—I do know, you’ve already heard the story earlier than.

Ober: Nicole sitting within the automobile—that was me. And I’m absolutely disgusted with myself and embarrassed. Like, as a result of that’s not how I need to be handled, and that’s not how I need to take into consideration folks. However I did it.

Micki: Oh, nicely, I’m shocked you—I’m impressed that you simply admitted that to me. I actually am. That’s going to be fascinating after I inform Nicole.

Ober: Since that incident, I’ve spent quite a lot of time with Micki making an attempt to know her trigger, her politics, and her anger. I’ve had many moments the place I assumed: What the hell am I doing, getting all caught up of their revisionist historical past of January 6? However what I can inform you is that Micki is just not who I assumed she was.

She is each bit as fiery as she comes off in speeches and confrontations with individuals who need her out of this metropolis. After almost a 12 months of realizing her, I’m nonetheless afraid of her. I’ve by no means earlier than in my life met an individual with such penetrating eyes, and he or she wields them to nice impact. If she is staring you down, I promise you, you will see that no aid.

Ober: So the window rolls down, and I suppose Nicole stated, , “Justice for J6!” Proper? Reflexively, in two seconds, I’m going, “Nicely, you’re within the unsuitable neighborhood for that.” Proper? Now, I really feel such as you would recognize that as a result of typically issues come out of your mouth that possibly you didn’t take into consideration. I’m an individual who could be very responsible of that, as my mouth runs away with me.

So, I stated that, and he or she goes, “We stay right here now. So suck it, bitch.” (Laughs.)

Micki: That’s my Nicole. (Laughs.)

Ober: And I used to be like, Nicely, okay.

[Music]

Rosin: Once we first bumped into the militiamobile, we didn’t know something about Micki and her crew. We thought anybody might be residing in that home, with that automobile. Possibly it was an precise militia headquarters with a cache of weapons within the basement. Possibly it was just a few wacko whose patriotism had gone completely sideways.

Ober: However now, after almost a 12 months of reporting this story, we all know a lot extra. And in the remainder of the collection, we’re going to take you thru this upside-down world we landed in—the place we discovered ourselves speaking conspiracies.

Micki: I don’t know what I imagine them able to. Is it consuming infants and consuming their blood? I don’t assume so. However I don’t know. I imply, I don’t know what they’re as much as.

Ober: How one can abruptly end up joking with January 6ers about militias?

Nicole: When you’re going to return down right here, you’ve received to know your militias straight.

Ober: You already know, I can’t—there are too many splinter teams and, .

Nicole: There’s factions. There’s ranges. There’s coloration coding. (Laughs.)

Ober: Hear. When the homosexual militia occurs, I’m there, okay? When that occurs. Till then—

Nicole: Nicely, we’re a rustic of militias, .

Ober: And questioning, What might probably be coming for us?

Rosin: Like, how lengthy are you going to remain in D.C.?

Brandon Fellows: I plan to remain ’til, like, January 7. (Laughs.)

Rosin: That feels vaguely threatening.

Fellows: I might see why you’d say that.

Rosin: That’s developing on We Stay Right here Now.

Ober: We Stay Right here Now is a manufacturing of The Atlantic. The present was reported, written, and government produced by me, Lauren Ober. Hanna Rosin reported, wrote, and edited the collection. Our senior producer is Rider Alsop. Our producer is Ethan Brooks. Authentic scoring, sound design, and blend engineering by Brendan Baker.

This collection was edited by Scott Stossel and Claudine Ebeid. Reality-checking by Michelle Ciarrocca. Artwork course by Colin Hunter. Mission administration by Nancy DeVille.

Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

The Atlantic’s government editor is Adrienne LaFrance. Jeffrey Goldberg is The Atlantic’s editor-in-chief.

Nicole. After which did I say one thing like, Nicely, bitch, I stay right here now, or one thing?

Ober: Very near that. “We stay right here now, so—”

Nicole: Get used to it?

Ober: No.

Nicole: Suck it? Fuck it?

Ober: No. You’re proper on the “suck it.”

Nicole: (Laughs.) I don’t know.

Ober: “Suck it,” what? “Suck it,” who?

Nicole: Suck it, fascist? (Laughs.) A lot extra fascist than me. Don’t inform me what I stated.

Ober: You stated, “Suck it, bitch.”

Nicole: Oh! Okay. Okay.